To keep this thread on topic: this might actually be what Demandred is doing, it might not be a traditional army, but it's a nice one to command in this Age

Anyhow, I think you are approaching it wrong, don't do it like Taim, but as I said, start with checking the Darkfriends you already have. My guess at checking a 1000 of them to get 10 was a nice estimation (according to your source) and I think there are easily a 1000 male darkfriends. However, we might get a wrong impression of the book as the darkfriends are flocking to our main characters of course But even if there are only 500 male darkfriends, you'd still get 5 channelers, probably one of them is strong enough to make a gate and then you can start recruiting...

Eventually we need a bunch of darkfriend channelers(I forgot the name...) to fight in the Last Battle, so maybe Demandred has been creating an army of them in Sharan (with quite a few locals as they're not as afraid of the male channelers as the rest of the world).

Just for the sake of telling shmugs he's wrong... Thom's nephew was a wilder, although we technically never met him. and there were a couple of important male aiel wilders, like the one who fought Luc etc.

But back on track eh? One thing I think we might be overlooking is the Taint. What effect do you think the taint will have on male wilders? or men born with the spark, or talent etc.

Whats with people confusing Smuggs and myself lately?

If you wanted to be extremely pedantic you could include those Rand saw in Rhuidean in the flashbacks, but it still doesn't change my point; that it would have been a pointless endeavour for the Dark One to attempt to gather darkfriend male channelers before the creation of the Blacktower. So you manage to get 5... so what? He has what... a couple of hundred Black Ajah milling about? See my point; much easier to convert Aes Sedai then worry about the occasional man.

Besides, they do have an army of darkfriend male channelers now. Its called the Blacktower.

Wrong about what? The last comment I made in this thread was in regards to the possibility of Demandred being an adviser for Tenobia, what does that have to do with Owyn?

Also something else semi-related to Taim...



So maybe Taim was changed. I hope he was; would add alot more depth to the character, and would explain some weird personality quirks (such as occasionally showing sympathy to Rand, etc etc.)

I feel like that comment was posted, or something close to it, awhile back. I think there is a lot going for that idea. The timing of Taim's escape/disappearance, his seeming inconsistent reactions towards things Rand has told him, these things would make sense if he had been turned be that method.

It was posted by Sanderson, but Jordan has said something similiar a few years ago as well. With both of them saying the same thing, its more likely it has happened or is going to happen. Would also be awesome if it happened to Egwene or Elayne

Elayne...Egwene redeemed herself as the best female character in the series without a shadow of a doubt (at least for now) after last book.

The only thing that I wonder about, is that idea hasn't been mentioned since what, tGH? Can it be reintroduced without feeling clunky and out of place?

Pfft, I disagree. Tuon is the best female character

And it would work. I have some friends who have read the series only once and dont come on any forums or whatnot and even they ask me if I think someone has been turned against their will. While its only been mentioned a couple of times, it seemed so important that its sort of stuck in everyones minds. And I think if it was found out that Taim was one such character it happened to, alot of people would be like "ahh that makes sense."

I think for anyone who reads Wheel of Time, it becomes apparent pretty early on that minor details and/or characters can have some importance later on, so anything that is mentioned that seems like it could be important is sort of filed away in a mental filing cabinet until such time that it becomes neccessary to whip out the idea again. The Horn of Valere is an example of this; since Mat sounded it, its actually only been mentioned a couple of times throughout the series, yet us as readers know it will play a role of importance in the future.

To tell you the truth I hated that plot device. Channeling through Mydrrall for some reason seamed sort of low fantasy, some sort of Deus Ex Machina.

The comments about Taim gave me an idea about why he was acting inconsistent. The first is that he could be just an inconsistent character with no real strategy, two, is that he's been turned or lastly that he was Compulsed and that he's either under control or some one/Demandred is posing as him in certain situations.

Where Demandreds base of operations is still under some doubt but he could be in any place that has been mentioned but I'd go with some place one is least likely to suspect or turn up. Basically anyplace not mentioned in detail or has some sort of radical government upheaval.

Okay, I am bored at work. So I've decided to list every nation on Randland and see if we can't narrow down where Demandred is. Now this is going along the assumption that Demandred wasny lying when he said his rule was secure, and his army prepares for war. I've based it on nations stability and army size. I've put the probability of him in those nations based on 1 - 5 (personal opinion of course.)

Aiel Waste
Rand dragged the majority of the Aiel with him, and the ones that rebelled were the Shaido, and have since then been almost destroyed. Chance of Demandred = 0.

Altara
Definetly not. Seanchan have a major base there, which was Semiharges territory. That, and theres no other main army at all. Beslan lead a few rebels, which have since joined up with the Seanchan. Any other recruits would have been swept up by the prophet and the Band of the Red Hand. Chance of Demandred = 0

Amadicia
Prior to Pedrons Niall death and the Seanchan invasion of the Fortress of the Light, Amadicia was controlled by the Whitecloaks. Now however the Seanchan have a large presence, along with some dragonsworn and Whitecloaks. No stability at all. Whitecloaks are too small a force for Demandred to care about, plus Galad is in control now and looks to be making an alliance with perrin. Chance of Demandred = 1

Andor
Not much chance really. Elaynes take for the throne is now secure and the majority of the rebel armies have been taken care of (Sarand is still out there but that hardly counts as a major army.) Not to mention Rahvin already placed himself there. Chance of Demandred = 1

Arad Doman
No chance. Graendal destablised the area completely. The nation is pretty much the opposite of secure. Chance of Demandred = 0

Blacktower
Its possible, but has a couple of things going for it. One being, why send Dashiva if Demandred was already there. Two being, Taim is in firm control of that place, and while its likely he is a darkfriend, he obviously isnt Demandred. Chance of Demandred = 2.

Borderlands
This is an interesting one. No other Forsaken as far as we know has placed themselves in the Borderlands (which in itself is kind of weird, as having a Forsaken infilitrate the first line of defense against the Blight would be of use.) A large Borderland army has drifted south on the pretense of "talking" to Rand, yet all signs point to something much stranger going on. Shiener and Arafel recently went through a civil wil, although that has long since abated. Not sure where Demandreds rule could come from, but Rahvin managed to gain himself a bit of an army; why not Demandred? Chance of Demandred = 3

Cairhein
Would be hard for Demandred to set up shop here with Rands constant presence and Dobraine lurking about. Its remotely possible if Dobraine turns out to be a proxy of his, but its doubtful. Other then that though, Cairhein is reasonably secure, has a decent sized army, and the Forsaken have yet to really take advantage of it. Unfortunately, the army is also Rands. Chance of Demandred = 3

Far Madding
Not really major enough to do anything really. Don't have much of a standing army, although the Guardian would ensure that Rand would have a hard time fighting Demandred (and vice versa.) The Borderland army around there is interesting though. Chance of Demandred = 1.

Ghealdan
No chance at all. Ghealdan was first war torn by Logain, and then the Prophet. Throw in until recently armies of dragonsworn, Shaido Aiel, Whitecloaks, and Perrin himself, and heres no chance for Demandred to carve out a stabalised rule. Chance of Demandred = 0.

Illian
Main problem against Illian is that its the old home of Sammael. Doesnt really make sense for Demandred to also be there. Chance of Demandred = 1

Mayene
They have an army of like five people. Chance of Demandred = 1

Murandy
An interesting one, and a favourite among some. So far, the Forsaken have yet to have anything to do with Murandy. King Roedran, until recently, had been thought to have little control over his nation. However, with the help of the Band of the Red Hand he has stablised the country somewhat, and since WH has been building up an army of his own. Its also somewhat interesting that the Seanchan have never really made a major move against Murandy. Against the idea of Demandred being there is the poor geographical location, as well as its insigifiance. Still, alot more likely then some. Chance of Demandred = 4.

Seanchan
Semiharges deal. Although, it is slightly possible that Demandred acted as Forsaken on the mainland of Seanchan, and drummed up an army there. As of KoD though and Semiharge killing the Empress, the nation is very much not stable. Perhaps he already had an army in place, and thats why she did it? In any case, not impossible, but hard to believe. Chance of Demandred = 1.

Shara
A land although referenced alot hasn't really had a place in the series. If Demandred wanted to forge out something for himself, Shara would be a decent place, especially if he wanted to declare himself the Dragon Reborn. However, Graendal had heard nothing of that happening, and she definetly has ties with Shara. Not to mention, introducing an entirely new civilisation with only two books left would be extremely difficult. Chance of Demandred = 2.

Tarabon
Pretty unlikely. Like Arad Doman, its a nation that has seen alot of chaos. Invaded by the Seanchan, in a constant war with Arad Doman, its not a particularly stable place. Chance of Demandred = 1.

Tar Valon
No chance. This is Mesaanas territory, as well as being a man Demandred would find it hard to carve out anything here. Chance of Demandred = 0

Tear
Another unlikely one. Rand has to much a presence there, with Darlin Sisnera very much loyal to him, and the recent rebellion was squashed. Chance of Demandred = 1.

So based on that, it looks as if the the most likely possibilities is Murandy or Borderlands, followed by Shara or Cairhein.

Interesting analysis, Tul.

I had never even though about Murandy. It would kind of make sense and would fit a lot of things. King Roedran could well be Demandred...he's probably the one ruler we have never seen on screen. Although I don't know if Dem would be the type to set himself up as a king, more likely an adviser like other Forsaken have.

One point that you made though that I contest is that there is no reason for the Seanchan to move against Murandy yet. It would be tactically unsound to move into Murandy without securing Illian first. As an army you'd be facing battle with 2 fronts with two large powerful nations (Andor and Illian).

I still think the the Borderlanders, possibly in a role as Tenobia's retinue is an interesting idea, seeing that the idea to move south after Rand with massive armies seem to have come from her...

I tend to agree with the Borderlands assumption. Just reading about all of them heading south made me think "Demandred" immediately. Why not? Tenobia is a hot head, but that's just stupid for her to take everyone she can gather south leaving the Blight unprotected. It could be likely that Demandred is manipulating them all. Well, unlikely, but a possibility. Perhaps to take the forces of the Light from behind? ,......Like a redheaded stepchild. Like everyone goes North, time is of the essence and Bam, the entirety of the Borderlands takes Rand in the flank. That would be interesting. Whatever their motivations I just CAN'T see them leaving the Borderlands like that.

It was said that they left well defended garrisons. But an army of 200,000 is sizeable. Very sizeable, and will be needed. Why just up and leave if there's not an ulterior motive?

EDIT: On top of that, at last we knew Lan was riding through the Borderlands gathering up the remaining Malkieri, and whoever else will follow him to Tarwin' Gap. Tell me THAT'S not going to further dry up the man power from the little they left behind.

Edit: Just to let you know how much smarter we are than those on TarValon.net....It will make you squimish 4 sur. The NEIGHBLISS is sure to be Demandred who is Taim and Olver is an Ogier kid. Oh and Slayer can acess the Tower of Ghenji and then Moiraine becomes Amyrlin....
http://www.tarvalonforums.net/forums/vi ... sc&start=0

There's no way Demandred is ruling Murandy. It's a pathetic country along the lines of Mayene and Altara, and would be all but meaningless compared to the other resources the DO has to draw upon. What the DO is lacking at this time is channelers to go head on against the massive numbers the Light has available to them. I can't imagine Demandred bringing anything less to the table then the BT, or an unknown army of channelers from somewhere like Shara or the Isle of Madmen.

I would also say that the DO is lacking, along with channelers, soldiers of the non-shadowspawn variety. Any army that Demandred is able to scrounge up that can use gateways and whatnot would be invaluable, especially since the good guys won't neccessarily be suspecting it. Last we heard the King of Murandy was building an army; we don't know the size of that army, or what kinds of people are involved in said army.

Having said that, I don't like the idea of him being in Murandy, but looking at all the locations, it does fit the best. I love the idea of him being in Shara and coming out from nowhere with a huge army filled to the brim with channelers, but the nightmare of implementing another civilisation in such a short time would be immense.

Well that's the thing, is it doesn't need to be fully implemented. It's not like we know half as much about the Seanchan as we do about any nation in Randland, but it still works. What we've learned about them from the forces they have on the ground in Randland has pretty much been a need to know basis.

And like I said, Murandy is a pathetic country. It wasn't even organized until Talmanes worked out a plan a few books back to help the king and make some money. The most powerful countries in Randland seem to be able to scrape together armies of about 100k when they really need to, but Murandy isn't one of them. I doubt Moridin would pat him on the back for spending the last several years hiding in Murandy to bring maybe 20k-50k humans to the fight. Especially if you consider that the only reason he'd have that much is due to a chance meeting with Talmanes like 4 months ago.

Demandred is cooking up something big. He's obviously doing it somewhere that he's been able to fully manipulate, or rule openly without being noticed, and for at least a year or more. Of all the known human armies he could be controlling, the only one with enough numbers, and little enough known about their leaders to make sense is the Borderlanders. All the other major nations are accounted for. Murandy, Amadicia, and Ghealdan are fail nations, held together more by geography and whitecloaks, then by their ability to defend themselves.

I think Demandred is with the Atha'an Miere. I've done a re-read and spot a place where there's a male with an out-of-place skill: riding. It's in Winter's Heart p464, 'To lose the sun'. The person is called Moad, right next to Harine's side. He's Harine's sword master, and Shalon thought that the man had been given so much leeway that people could think he's Harine's lover. I might be chasing a wild goose here, but I don't see much point at all in the chapter. (But, well, most chapter in the later books don't have points anyway. Especially those in Crossroads of Twilight or Path of Daggers.)

In Tul's analysis, the Atha'an Miere is the only thing he's missed. They have fleets, though not as powerful as the Seanchan, which has occupied an entire continent, but their powers are significant to the war and people have overlooked them just because they haven't shown their ground control. Their island is easily as big as Illian, and that's not at all small. They could even be comparable to England in our world.

I think the borderlander is more likely though. The idea of getting under the Guardian is so like Demandred, IMO.

BTW, Rob J said that not many people could guess in fan letters who Demandred was. That implies that he's a guessable person, an identifiable person who you could name and Rob J could tell if you were right or wrong.

I seriously doubt it's the Sea Folk. They are too decentralized for anyone to rule over them so absolutely, and ships aren't going to help the DO at Shayol Ghul or the Blight.

Whilst the idea of Demandred being with the Atha'an Miere isn't all that bad, without them having some centralised rulership I don't see Demandred of all people going there.
Sammael, Rahvin, Graendal and Be'lal all took up positions of power and influence and Demandred is like...the one Forsaken who wouldn't play second fiddle to anyone, anywhere, ever due to how badly it ticked him off being 2nd best to Lews Therin.
For me, it would be out of character for Demandred to be anything but top dog, wherever he is.

Of course, if the Dark One ordered it, perhaps he would grin and bear it....

There is also the problem that RJ said in an interview shortly following the release of KoD (I believe), that we have never seen Demandred "on-screen" as anyone but Demandred. So if you believe the statements that RJ makes in interviews (which after Verin is an argument in and of itself) no character that has been seen in the series prior to tGS could possibly Demandred's disguise.

What Smuggs said. The mystery behind Demandred is not who he is, but where he is, which is what RJ has hinted at a couple of times throughout the series (Sammael's comments, etc.) When we find out where he is, I am willing to bet that we'll find out who he is immediately; I doubt it'll be kept a secret like Mesaana is, and for a short time Semiharge and Dashiva.

I'd have to disagree since Demandred has been "on screen" but in an unknown location, possibly posing as an unknown person since Lord of Chaos. A book where he apparently did something that pleased the Great Lord of the Dark.

I really don't think this is that big a mystery. Unless its going to be in reference to an event that we never saw occur, I think its quite obviously the chaos sown at Dumai Wells and the coming out party of the Asha'man. I still believe that no matter what army Demanded is controlling or leading, Taim and the Blacktower at his pet project. Whether Taim's is being controlled by strings or by chains, I still think that Demandred is the one that is pulling on them.

Yeah Dumai Wells is really the only thing that makes sense. I used to think it may have been Masema but he was already doing his prophet crap before Demandred visited the Dark One, and Carridin was doing alot of the chaos sowing in that regard anyhow. Even Sammael says that Mesaana had a hand in Rands kidnapping, maybe even Semiharge and Demandred despite how it ended.