I have just finished Stephen King's Dark Tower series and I would like to share my opinion.

I started this series back when I was in high school in 1986. I now teach high school and it is 2005. I look at this series as a walk through an author's career.

The Gunslinger was during King's beginning. Nothing look too unweildy or to big (he wrote it before Carrie). It was his attempt to write a Lord of the Rings story...except Western. When I read it, I understood King was saying,"This is my tour de force...this is my legacy" but was young enough not to be intimidated.

The Drawing of Three and The Wastelands were Stephen King at the height of his creativity. This is the author in his stride. (I also enjoy the Richard Adams reference to Shardik, when I was reading the novel I was saying to myself,"wouldn't it be cool if the bear's name was Shardik"). I believe he fully intended to get the fourth book out in the next year...but he had drugs to get rid of first.

Wizard and Glass was the author after quiting drugs and booze and all things killing himself. He was recovering from his self destructive stage. Most of his work during this time period was King trying to find his creative voice without the tools that made him great (drugs+booze+self destruction=fantastic work, scary but it seems to be true for many artists). I love this story. I'm a hopeless romantic and it was a beautiful romance. But the author is stuggling with his livelyhood and you can tell he has lost confidence in his arguement. You can also see more of the cultural reference of his lifetime invading the stories. The stories are becomming an account of romantic Americana (in a twisted way) and he is tying his other stories together into this universe.

Then we wait, and wait, and wait.
King has gotten to the point where he is frightened by the enormity of the novel and he doesn't know what to do. So, he ignores it. The he is hit by the van. His life flashes before him and we get

Wolves of the Calla, Song of Susanah, The Dark Tower. This is the author at the end of his career. He is respected. He has become an American icon, the stuff he had been writting at. He has gone through a trauma and looks back as his life and feels he has squandered it away (don't we all). But King writes about it. "Get busy living, or get busy dying."

I feel the last 3 books are really one book, with one really boring middle section (Song of Susanah). King is saying to the public, "I have forgotten the face of my father" and is trying to fix it. And just like in the Godfather, he starts tying up ALL lose ends.

My opinion on the:
Death of Randall Flagg--he was a great villian. The best I've ever read about. But he was a small little man. Every book he was in, he was a small little man. We the reader made him bigger then he really was. His flaw was that he tried to be bigger than he really was, and in the end he paid for it with a small, little death. I liked it. I even teared up when we saw a glipse of his backgroud...what was it? two sentences? but two powerful sentences about were he came from. It was a small death and the right death.

Death of Father Callahan--righteous. He was able to redeem himself before God (the face of his Father). He stood up and trusted his faith in the end. (Now if only we could go back to that TNT movie of Salem's Lot and prevent them from making him a bad guy). King was finally able to finish Salem's Lot in the Dark Tower. It only took 30(?) years.

Death of Eddie--it was a silly death for a silly man. He was a good guy, and in my opinion the true hero of the entire series. His death was right because it was meaningless and a mistake. It was painful and Eddie didn't deserve it for all he went through. It was silly. That's why I liked it. He doesn't get to die guns blazing in glory, he dies due to a stupid mistake. It fits the tragic quality of the character and I feel it is right that the heart and soul of the Dinh that Eddie really was died first. He is martyred...he is made for it. (I thought it would be either him or Roland to die first)

Death of Jake--a child dies so that King may live. This is King beating himself up. A noble death. A righteous death. A tragic death. He was doom to die many times. His story is an unmarked grave...I wonder if his parents really missed him we he left? Yes, children do die. They die everyday and Jake is among them. Speaking of saving King's life...did you notice that King used the actual person who hit him in his book. That person died a year later after the accident of unknown causes. Further, there is a new writer who was born on June 19th named Bryan Smith who is also a horror writer. Is it King or just creepiness.

Death of Oy--it reminded me of "Where the Red Fern Grows" and "Ol Yeller". It is a great death scene. I believe it is this death that undoes Roland...the last friend to die. Poor Roland...you deserve this.

Death of Mordred--I liked it because the longer Mordred lived the more unbeatable he would have become. Is it anticlimatic? No. This would have been the only time you could have killed him. How many times do you read a book or see a movie and say if you kill him know you won't have to go through all the rest. Here, it happens.

The End--Poor Roland...you deserve this! You deserve to go through this over and over. You sacrifice friend and family for this and this is your reward. Welcome to hell, you built it. I liked Roland as a hero, but he would sacrifice anything for the tower. He deserved this since he let Jake drop. This made the entire series worth reading. And I loved how the series begins and ends with the same line..."The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed."

Welcome to the Blacktower Angus! Wow, that would have to be one of the best first posts I've ever seen!

I completely agree with you concerning the books; Drawing of the Three and the Wastelands were the height of Kings creativeness, but I can't help but like Wizard and Glass the most. Cuthbert is an absolutely brilliant character in my opinion and he alone made the book. Then when you add in villians like Jonas and Rhea (is there anyone in the series who is more hated then the witch of the Coos) the novel starts to seem more King-like then first appearence. If anything, King seemed to be trying something new - he said himself he wasn't confident in his ability to write a love story, which is essentially what Wizard and Glass was.

About the last three books, to me it seems as if King just wanted to get it over and done with. The DT to him had reached its mental climax and he couldn't be assed writing it but had to because of his legions of fans. I still enjoyed the books, but he didn't seem to put as much effort in writing them as he did the previous three to that. There were so many loose ends that King just did not bother addressing.

Concerning Flagg, he did deserve his death, but I don't think he was a small man. Not in the scheme of things anyhow. True he did try and be more then what he was, but this was a man who was responsible for almost wiping out the entire human race on earth, who bought about the fall of Gilead which lead to the changing of the DT world.

The only problem I have with Flaggs death is that it was so unlike him. In everyuthing we have seen him in, he has always had a back-up plan. He is a crafty bastard and he knows this, and takes a delight in it. It just didn't seem right for him to rely on that thinking cap of his without some sort of escape route.

Eddie was the true hero. Screw Roland Eddie went from being a drugged up, pitiful, pathetic drug addict to a true Gunslinger. He needed to die at that point, because if he had survived he would have gone onto the Darktower with Roland, and Susannah with him - and the ending would probably be quite different to what it is now. It was a good death for Eddie symbolically.

Once again, welcome to the Blacktower! Excellent first post

Thank you for the kind words. That was my first attempt at a post.

If I had to list the books in the order I enjoyed them (and I have to take my own age in at the time of their reading: 16 for Gunslinger, 18 for Drawing of Three, 20 for The Wastelands, 25 for Wizard and Glass, and 32-33 for Wolves of the Calla, Song of Susanah, and The Dark Tower) it would go like this.

1. Wizard and Glass -- tragic love story, great heros and villians (Roland is a haunted man...til the end). Western motiff on the shore is emblazoned in my head. I could smell the hay and manure and dust. I could hear the music and feel the nip of cold in the air.

Rhea was a great villian, subtle in the fact she is not the main villian. She tasted of molded bread and sour milk, she smelled like garbage that should have been taken out a day ago, her looks makes you want to look away and shiver. Yet, we never see her as the biggest threat. Great writing by King.

Cuthbert and the scout are great foils to Roland. Cuthbert's humor is great and dangerous at the same time. Cuthbert is the reason I started liking Eddie. You know the scout was going to betray them, you just didn't know when. His jealousy at Susan was classic. He saw what Roland was becoming, forgetting the mission, and it was because of her. The confrontation between Roland and Cuthbert was a highlight of the book. Doesn't it seem that our best friends always see problems with the people we end up falling for?

Jonas was a powerfully strong villian. In many ways, I saw him as Jimmy Stewert as a bad guy in the Western. It is powerful and in his own mind he sees himself as a hero. He is what Roland could become, is in danger of becoming, the big coffin hunters are great mirror images of Roland's group, and Eddie's group later on. They reminded me of the Wild Bunch.

The death of Susan was horrendous. The town in a blood rage was disconcerting. I enjoyed every word of it.

2. The Wolves of the Calla--"We deal in lead". I liked all the aspects of this story. Probably because it had been so long since I read the stories it was like a family reunion with loved ones. Every scene is embracable and the reappearance of Father Calahan, a character I really liked in Salem's Lot, just got me going. The end was what sold it for me though, King actually exists? Who did he think he was...Charlie Kaufman in Adaptation? It sold me, I couldn't wait to pick up the next book. By the way, to get ready to read Wolves of the Calla, I listened to the books on CD. The voice actor who did the readings of Drawing of Three, The Wastelands, and Wizard and Glass, and who the Wolves of the Calla is dedicated to. Was an incredible reader who, to me, made Eddie come alive. If you have the chance, listen to those books.

3. The Gunslinger--I'm from Texas. I was intriqued by this book from an author from Maine because it was a Western. I immediately fell for it: "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed." Cue up "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" music...start the wind generator and give me a Clint Eastwood close up with a whistle! From start to finish I was talking to this book. I am convinced this could be a great American Anime if done right. I especially like the part where Roland kills the whole town! When he let's Jake drop, I was screamming,"You son of a dog! How could you! What kind of person are you? Nothing good will come of you, you don't deserve to exist!" Of course, I was loving any minute of it. After all, he let the kid die. When was the last time you read that in a novel?

4. The Dark Tower--A good story is based on it's ending. You can have the best story in the world but if you have no ending, you have nothing. Some great stories with fantastic endings are Casablanca, The Usual Suspects, and The Dark Knight Returns. An example of a story with a lousy ending is the Avaiator or The Wastelands (let's face, we were all angry at that one). The Dark Tower was one of the greatest endings of them all. I really was concerned about how he was going to end it, anything at the top of that tower would never match up with what the fans are expecting. But this ending, it just seems to be the only right ending (people who disagree should rewatch Matrix ReLoaded...I mean really, the Architect is waiting in the room for Neo...geesh). It also has great ending for each major character.

5. The Drawing of Three--It's number 5, but seriously, the top 4 books to me are 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d. I never really liked him getting his fingers bitten off and I never took to Susanah throughout the entire series, so I don't have the same loyalty as everyone else has. I understand the meaning behind them and the necessity. But aside from Eddie's story, I never got into the other characters, and to be honest, I wasn't an Eddie fan for awhile. Plus, this was a departure from the Western motif I was enjoying. It's a quality book and when seen with the whole storyline, it becomes a better book in my mind. But when I read it the first time, I was disappointed.

6. The Wastelands--just because how it ended. That's the only reason.

7. Song of Susanah--well, I never liked Susanah and this story, for the most part, is about her and Mia. And it seemed they kept saying the same thing over and over. Father Callahan and Jake aren't really in it. Roland and Eddie have a GREAT battle. I mean, when I read that part I perked up and got interested in what they were doing and saying. Seeing King reflect on his younger self was like watching the end of Fight Club when Tyler Durden figures out he is Tyler Durden...really good self abuse. But then, we're back to Susanah...sigh...

However, the ending with the "death" of King really interested me. Made me excited about the last book.

My favorite King book of all time is The Stand. The walking dude, Randall Flagg, was a great villian. But I always saw him as underestimating a key figure: he underestimated the Trashcan Man, he underestimated the power of God. I see his death as the same flaw, he underestimated something that was way out of his control. He had gotten away with this flaw for many a stories but I think it just ran out. He always seemed in control in every book, with every turn planned. But, his downfall was always something I always thought he should have planned for. "The center does not hold" When it turned out that he was raped at a young age, I found that I pitied him, because he spent all his life trying to get even for that crime (much like it seemed that Lawerence of Arabia does after his implied defloweration). He becomes tragic, oh he deserves what he gets and more, but his sould ends up being tragic because of one lustful, evil, uncontrollable person.

Welcome Angus to the Black Tower. I agree, marvelous first and second posts. I hope you stick around.

I'm not sure about Tularis, but you and I have very different perspectives on the Dark Tower series, in that I started reading it this past December and finished it 3 weeks ago. I thereby escaped being angry about the end of the Waste Lands, because I had already bought Wizard and Glass, and just picked it up immediately. I can definitely see how you would be pissed off at having to wait like that!!! WTF!

Also, The Dark Tower was the first thing I ever read by Stephen King. I had seen some of his movies since I was a child (I'm 24 now), such as It, Maximum Overdrive (lame, but scared the hell out of me as a kid!), The Green Mile, The Stand (ouch!). I've since read 'Salem's Lot, because I loved Father Callahan's character. Actually, I read that before I read the Dark Tower (#7), so I was fully acquainted with the character before his great death.

I intend to continue this post later, but it's time for me to leave work now.... my point is, the series has a kind of coherence for me that it may not have for someone who read it over a long span.

Again, Welcome!!

impressive posts angus my favorite parts in the books were when Roland was in new york in his own form, the battles with the cops felt so real that you can almost see the old and new clash, gunslinger vs cops loved it


i also liked cuthbert quite a bit, he was jealous but also right in his rants and not believed BECAUSE he was jealous good stuff


i also didnt like how Roland was maimed at every danger i wanted to see full roland handle it for good or bad

i also never quite could get used to the character of Susanna, i found that her changes too erratic and her romance to eddie too rushed

Eddie was my fav character next to Roland and jake his interactions with Roland in New York were great

Welcome to the tower btw

Flagg did underestimate alot of people, which was one of his weaknesses. But in a way I see that as a good thing - it made him more three dimensional, more human (if thats the right word.) He was overly confident in himself, but as I pointed out in my previous post, he was definetly not a small man. Just not as large and powerful as he wanted to be.

And Jonas kicked ass. Another example of a three dimensional villian. As the book went on it was hard to see him as being evil, because I guess he wasn't really. just a bad man who had done some bad things and paid the price. So many things he said throighout Wizard and Glass though displayed that he still had a sense of decency in him. A very cool "villian" in my opinion.

Howdy! Your comments are very kind. I appreciate them.

Andric:

You know, I believe I've grown use to having to wait for sequels now. Wastelands was probably the worst wait I had to do. I had to wait three years for Return of the Jedi. The Empire Strikes Back ends on such a revelation and a downer, and as an 8 year old, I believed Vader was lying and Han Solo was the actual other Skywalker. Those 3 years were very long for a little kid.

It's funny, but King use to get threats to finish the Dark Tower series. One person tied up a teddy bear and took a photograph of a knife on the bears throat and wrote King,"Bring out the next Dark Tower book or the bear gets it". Personally, I believed King had them written and was going to release them after his death.

The more annoying of writers who wait forever to print another addition on their series is Robert Jordan. Now he had me banging my head against the wall waiting for him to write. It got so bad, I finally gave.

My first King book was in 1983ish, and it was Pet Sementary. It scared me so bad I put it down for 6 months (I was 11 years old with a very, very active imagination). I credit King, Richard Adams, and Douglas Adams for getting me hooked on reading (I should also put Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Chris Claremont, and Alan Grant for their fantastic comic books). My favorite all time book is the Stand.

In fact, my top 5 books of all time are:
1. The Stand
2. Ender's Game
3. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
4. Watership Down
5. Speaker for the Dead

If you want to read another good King book, read Christine(for pure pleasure) and the Talisman(Especially if you are a Dark Tower fan). The best King movie has got to be Shawshank Redemption, it's almost verbatum to the novella.

I saw Maximum Overdrive and I appreciated it for what it was. It had good elements in it and it is a good lark to watch on those Saturday afternoons with nothing to do. I love how the coke machine killed a person, to this day I walkup to the machines and don't stand directly in front of it. Yes, I know it is screwy, but it's just the way I am.

Lord Dragon:
My favorite shoot out occured in the Drawing of Three. When Eddie is shooting naked in the Tower Club(?). That was a great scene. I could smell the smoke and hear the blasts. I love the part where they threw Henry's head to Eddie. In fact, most of the shoot outs were well staged. Even the death of Mordred had a "bullet time" feel to it. I enjoyed the Wolves of the Calla gunfight...it reminded me of the Wild Bunch.

I agree that I prefered a whole Roland. King goes and creates this fantastic, skilled hero and then castrates his power. That was a let down, but it made Roland vulnerable enough to need help, I do not think Roland would have used Eddie and Susanah if he weren't crippled. In fact, if we believe Roland has done this many times before (and I sincerely hope so, I really enjoy his suffering...quite possibly the best anti-hero/knight errant/fallen paladin I've read) then I believe that in previous iterations, Roland killed Eddie because of his silliness. He killed Susanah because of her mulitple personality. He probably pulled Jack Mort(the pusher) into Mid World. It would be an interesting story, or novella, if King would write "The Multiple Lives of Roland" and show various different choices he made and their ramifications on the Tower. Perhaps Cuthbert lived through one, or maybe Susan, I am convinced that the reset does not always happen at the desert.

I believe you nailed it on the head when you said the love between Eddie and Susanah was rushed and forced. That is probably a major reason I don't like Susanah. Perhaps if he could have had that romance grow into itself in the course of a book or two, I would have accepted Susanah more. As it is, all I see is,"Hi, I'm a crazy woman" to "Hi, I'm not crazy anymore" to "Hi, I may still be crazy" to "Hi, maybe I'm possessed". And in a sick and twisted way, I felt that perhaps Roland and Susanah should have gotten romantically involved in the last book on their last journey, it seemed it was slightly implied. Perhaps this happened/would happen in another iteration. The love triangle would have been an interesting twist.

Tularis:
My top King villians are:
1. The walking dude, Randall Flagg
2. Christine
3. Anne Wilkes
4. Jonah the Big Coffin hunter
5. Pennywise, even moreso once Tim Curry played him

My top other villians
1. The Joker, greatest comic book villian of them all
2. Kizer Souze from the Usual Suspects
3. Darth Vader
4. The Wicked Witch of the West (Elfaba), but only after reading the book Wicked, the Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West
5. Baltar from Battlestar Galactica, he was a great Judas in the original series and I always enjoyed that sniveling little worm. In the new series, he is probably the funniest and most identifiable of the characters and you know it's not going to end pretty for him.

I'm inclined to agree with Angus about Randy Flagg. I just finished the Stand this week, and while there's no doubt that Flagg is a nasty powerful mawfuggah, in terms of character, he's definitely a "small" man. He's petty, he's childish, petulant, impulsive. He tossed Nadine out the window to shut her up!

I still love him as a villain though. His pettiness makes it all the more effective.

Angus, you read Wicked, The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West? I adore that book! I bought it for my sister (Long story, but that is her nickname The Wicked Witch and I am Gkinda the Good Witch of the North, don't ask) and read it before I gave it to her, Elfaba is one of the best characters I have ever read.. I love your insights into Randall Flagg, I too pitied him in the end. It was with a sense of justice I read about him trying to rip out his own tounge.. that instrument that had caused so much grief and terror and bloodshed in so many times and places. Altho' I must admit his death was a bit anticlimatic. Just so you know, I am probably one of the oldest members here and have been reading SK for far longer than any of you (almost) since I was in 7th. grade way back in in the year that Carrie was published. I fell in love with Kings work that long ago. I have to agree with Tul, I don't think Flagg was a "small man" a minor demon perhaps, but not a small man. Petty, peevish and childish and yes petulant and Andric so succintly put it, but not small. He did have a bad habit of always underestimating those around him. Mother Abigail, Larry, Ralph, Trashy all of them and he always seemed to escape, this time tho' there was no escape, however; there is isn't there? But there is also hope isn't there? If there is hope for Roland to get things right? Isn't there hope for Flagg as well? Roland has somethingn this time that he never has had before Arthur Elds horn, to my mind that changes everything, and I do mean everything. Maybe he won't even draw the same three? I doubt he will let Jake fall again, each turn of the wheel (if you will pardon the expression) Roland learns something new. Maybe this turn of the wheel he will draw Jack Sawyer? Or Parkus will be with him, after all isn't Parkus a Gunslinger? ( I certainly think no matter what Parkus thinks, Sophie thinks as well) What about Ted Brautigan? Sheemie too, mayhaps this time Roland will understand just how special Sheemie is and Susan will be saved and Sheemie will save all of them. You just never know, after all as you so nicely put it, it's Rolands hell, people who don't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them, and Roland is learning isn't he? I need my bed for the night, but I promise to address your posts and they were wonderful by the by.. Soon. King is a favorite subject with me.. And it does me fine! And Welcome aboard..

Personally, I don't think Roland is meant to reach the Dark Tower, and that is one of the points of the whole cycle. Susannah figured this out and left before the shit could hit the fan so to speka, and as a result of her leaving she found what could be considered an happy ending. What if Roland had done the same, and left with her? Oy would sitll be alive; Roland wouldn't bne doomed to repeat the cycle over and over again. It would mean him choosing one of his friends over the Tower. The three Stephen Kings did say that Roland had already won; he did not need to continue the journey. And this time around, Roland will be less obssessed with the Tower and more interested in his friends.

And onto flagg, he was petty, but thats how villians are meant to be! Especially when you take in his history.

True and true Tul, if he had left, he might have found love and light again. After all the King was still Tower pent and the beams were healing themselves weren't they? PAtrick could have gone with both Suziella and Roland and of course Oy the brave, that little guy did have a yard of guts didn't he? I do have to say I disagree with those of you who didn't like Eddie and Suze together, I thought it seemed right. Jake loved Roland even tho he knew what he was, a flawed man who could be ruthless even with those he loved. Right until the very end Roland doesn't even realize exactly what it is. I think that maybe this time he just might turn aside from the tower. Mostly because Mordred is already dying and there is no need for him to kill him. He just needs to release Patrick and he and Suze and Oy and Patrick go through the door to Eddie and Jake.. that would be the happy ending...

Well I'm back from my vacation and I see that I have missed some posts (But it was a fun spring break).

Andric mentioned Nadine. Now here was a character that I really got into. She was cursed at childhood to become a demon's bride (Flagg). She saved herself thinking it would be something wonderful, falling in love with the idea but knowing, deep down, it was a dangerous thing. Spurning the man she truely loved and decieving the boy she used, Nadine ends up being brutally raped by Flagg, the man she was intended for. This is the bride of the Devil. She always has a chance to get out but feels trapped. The oppurtunity to escape continually exposes itself but she doesn't take it. She was a haunted character through out the entire book and King slowly develops her character into the Jezebel of the Stand, even throwing her from a window to the dogs below. Lauren San Giacomo performs this part brillently in the miniseries. To me, Nadine enhanced the evil nature of the Walking Dude, Flagg. I sometimes wonder what it would have been like if she had lived and partnered up with Flagg. The implecations would have been astounding.

Miss Meggles, I loved Wicked! I found out about it in a PBS documentary on Broadway. I really dug how attractive Elfaba looked in the musical (pretty voice, pretty face, it was one of those moments where a man is awestrucked by something he didn't expect...this was no 50 year school marm on a bicycle going, "I'll get you my pretty, and your little dog too.") So, I bought the soundtrack and listened to it. Really good work by the same guy who did Godspell. Then I found out the musical was very loosely based on a novel and I went and picked it up. It was one of the best original novels I had read. I love how the author takes the reader through the stages of woman like Elfaba. A scandalous conception creating a cursed creature born in an evil, demonic contraption. A dismal childhood with a broken family invaded by a third non human party that both the mother and father fall for. I enjoyed how the father did have feelings for Elfaba when he gave her the small present. Her college years where she meets up with her calling and callous destruction of her hopes and dreams when she meets the wizard, who seems enormously evil and you know he's going to get away with it (when I was reading the novel the wizard in my head was not the old befulded man from the movie but rather the Flagg from the miniseries the Stand). Her revolutionary period and romance where she seems to become this beautiful exotic creature, much like Jasmine in Aladin. This is where she is satisfied only to find she cannot commit the crime she wants and finding her lover dead. That was a powerful scene with her arriving at the abby with blood on her hands. And it is amazing that there is this character that keeps showing up guiding her into more torture and torment. Her life as an exile in the palace of her own lover's wife and not able to beg for forgiveness. Her descent into madness and frustration during her middle ages. The loss of everything she cares for and the confrontation with the Wizard. Her hollow victory over her nemisis and her anticlimatic death by the hands of an innocent who only wanted to help. The journey was incredible, the fall desprate and I found myself hating everyone in Oz.

Now what I would like to see, is for Stephen King to come out of retirement and write a novel about the entire life on Randall Flagg. It can crossover into everybook he was end. I feel this story would be very enjoyable. You can even show Flagg trying to go good but something catastrophic forces him to the dark side for good (and not just the rape). You could seem him come into contact with other characters from the other books he's not associated with, like Frank Dodd. You can see his first love, his first kill, the first time he meets the Devil and joins up. It would be interesting to see how he continued after his momentous failures. This would be a good book.

What I like about the ending to The Dark Tower was the possibilities of Roland's other iterations thru the Dark Tower. I would love to see a novel, or short story, or even fan fiction of this:

The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed him. Behind the gunslinger on an old paint horse of deathly white followed his bride sucking the last breathe of life into her frail tattered body. Her lips once lush as rose was chapped bitter black with gnawing and sand. Her eyes once blue as the ocean he found her by was now grey and covered in mucus. The long flowing raven hair was a bitter memory as peices fell out with every move. Her skin was rough and pale as the full moon, for her blood, what was left, could barely move thru her wasted body. She slipped slowly from the horse without a sound to the warm earth below and failed to find the clearing but instead came to an hot, unrepentent oven. Her journey to the world of death would be slow. The gunslinger kept his eye ever on the direction of the man in black and would not notice her disappearance until he made camp that night in the ruin remains of the man in black's camp. By the next morning, Roland would convince himself that she never exsisted.

Something like that.

Tularis, if Roland doesn't reach the Tower he dies a natural death and does end the cycle. I think that is a big possibility. But if that is the case, he still has to save the beams. This is the point were Roland will have conflict. He is too far gone not to give up by this time. There is nothing else left for him but to move on. He so far out in endworld, he won't be able to meet anyone new worth loving and anyone with him by this point will be possessed by his determination. Roland won't quit at this time, it's not in his nature. I can't think of anything that would take him off his course of action, and by this time the Tower wants him to continue and torment him. I would like to know what his first iteration was like. I bet the first time he was all of 17 full of vim and vinegar, when he reached the tower and he did something that threw him into this loop forever. I also think the tower starts Roland over at different stages in his life, not always in the desert.

Miss Meggles, I see that you ally yourself with the Packers. I am not a fan of the Packers but an acolyte of the great Tom Landry and his beloved Cowboys (grew up on them). I am a born-again Texans fan, the second coming of the Cowboys and all their greatness. I do not follow the false phophet of the Deadskins nor their evil brother/sister Eagles and cannot tolerate the Niners of the Forty. But I love how you pronounce your taste in football teams.

Packers now and always Angus.. The Cowboys used to be good I always felt sorry for Troy Aikman surrounded by thugs and no accounts that brought disgrace to a Wonderful team~ I don' think King is ever going to completely retire, no not at all, as he said the hand that holds the pen gets restless. I am looking forward to the sequal to Black House.. and a novel just about RF? Sounds like a fine idea, but I really don't want it in a way.. I loved the nystery of the man from the start.. Nadine was a wonderful foil for him wasn't she? I loved how in the end she goaded him into killing her. After reading what you wrote about that, I wondered if Mia had the same kind of connection with him as she did, after all she did say she didn't remember much except that it was "cold" just as Nadine described it when he raped her.. Worth a thought isn't it?

Well actually Stephen King is no longer retired as such and has a new book coming out in a few months (forgot what its called though, have to look it up later.) There are also continous rumours surrounding talisman 3, which will hopefully wrap up a few loose ends concerning the Dark Tower (or maybe not, who knows.) So yeah, I guess King decided that retirement wasn't really for him

nadine was a cool character, but out of all the "bad guys" in the Stand, I will always have a soft spot for Lloyd. I'm not sure why, but he had a sort of quiet honour about him and he obviously respected Flagg alot for what he did.

Lloyd was allright wasn't he? Even when he knew it was going bad he stuck by RF.. I so remember how he said "Trashy" You could just feel how bad he felt about Trashy having radiation poisoning.. Lloyd was the one who was going to "Ride the Lightning" I was right the Supreme Court that met and decided so fast was in The Stand, to bad it isn't like that in real life sometimes...

Miss Meagles, I hear a lot of people call the Cowboys thugs back in the nineties but I always like to point out the classy Cowboys during that decade: Emmitt Smith, Jay Novachek (TE...Aikmen's goto man), Daryl Johnston(FB...Emmitt's bulldozer...and a great color man on tv), Bill Bates(special teams...revolutionized the position), Darren Woodson(S...just retired...the end of an era), Dexter Coakly(LB), and Dat Ngyuen(Texas Aggie LB...real quick).

I cannot wait for the Talisman 3 to come out. I really enjoyed The Talisman, Wolfie was my favorite, especially the part where him and young Jack and hugging each other in fear inside the toliet stall. Powerful. I always felt that Jack was the best kid hero King(?) created, and I always saw Jake as his twin...although I don't think Jake matches up quite as well as Jack. Of course, that maybe because of the fact that Jack was the main character and Jake, for all his greatness and virtue, was a supporting character. The whole idea of a quest to save his dying mother was really moving for a kid of 12 at the time and I can still taste the salt air of the beach house in New England where Jack starts from. When Black House came out I realized how much I had missed King's writing. Before that came out, King was producing such novels as Bag of Bones(and, beside's Kara Laugh's, what else came from that book for the Dark Tower), The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon(because God comes on in the ninth...and he did!) and Dreamcatcher. King was in a cycle that was boring me without me realizing it. Then Black Tower came out, and I was saying to myself,"Thank you Stephen, this is your true writing may it do ya fine!" I was excited about reading the story again. Of course, it's like meeting an old friend with Jack, especially since we are the same age roughly. It was like a reflection of myself in aging. Black Tower seemed like a warm up for the Wolves of the Calla. King is in his stride.

Mia. You know I never liked her. I liked Nadine, I was given time to like her. But Mia was a nuisence. She just appears, looks like she's another personality...here we go again...and is used like salt on an open wound just to spice stuff up a bit. You would think 2 books would give you time to like this villian but I kept just getting board with her and her childlike matter. It's the whole Susannah thing, everything connected to her bothered me. It's kinda like that female character in Conan the Barbarian (the movie): she serves a purpose but all her dialog is annoying and trite ("You want to live forever"). It makes a person want to go through the movie and remove every single line she says, and it would make a better movie! Heck, she could still be in it, she is sorta attractive, and making her a mute character would only enhance the experience. You could do the same thing to Mia, it would probably eliminate the need for the 6th book and you can have Mia say only one thing and that is the pronouncement in The Dark Tower about her child,"Look at my beautiful Mordrid!" as he is sucking away the life from her. It was there that I had a twinge of sadness, not much because I knew I didn't have to listen to her, but just a little.

Lloyd is a great villian in contrast. His introduction is a bang! You despise him for the foul vermin he is. Then in jail, you suffer for him in his starvation and saving "Br'r Rat" for some din-din "just in case". He becomes a noble villian who could have been great for the other side as well. He seems to be what Eddie Dean could have become or the rock and roll singer in the Stand could have become(who I want to call Eddie as well, but am not sure that was his name...they seem to be the same kind of character) Lloyd was also played perfectly by Miguel Ferrar in the miniseries and all his scenes were the cat's pajamas. In fact, most of the villians in the Stand was pure genius. I see many copies of Lloyd in the Dark Tower(book 7 especially).

The singer was Larry Underwood, Angus.. How could you forget, Baby Can you Dig Your Man, on a CD called Pocket Savior?(In the movie Lucy and Joe come upon him sitting on a car singing Barry MacGuires Eve of Destruction.. great song btw for the movie as well as BOC Don't Fear The Reaper) Larry wised up before he became a total addict, but he didn't become a real person until Nadine and Joe.. When he started to care about other people he lost the part of him that his mother said "You have something in you Larry that is like biting on tinfoil" She was his mother and she loved him, but she knew what he was. She would have been proud of how her boy turned out in the end don't you think? Lloyd was a very cool character and you are right about him. Altho' I don't think Eddie would have been much like him, I think that if Eddie hadn't gotten sober he would have been dead. I didn't much like Mia either, but by the end I felt a lot of sympathy for her. Suze was right she was just the babysitter. (Detta/Odetta/Suze they were all right) Mia was just determined is all, and I'm sorry but I love Suziella, she is for me anyway a great female character. Her love for Eddie and Jake and Roland and the sacrifices she makes for them all make me love her.

The Talisman is one of my favorites as well, I loved Jacky and his friend Rational Richard.. and all that "Seabrook Island" stuff. Wolf was a favorite as well I can just picture it in my mind, "You're the herd now Jacky" There are some great moments in that book.. I loved him at the end of his stint in Oatley.. Black House was of course much darker than Talisman. Jacky is a Coppiceman and he is almsot like Richard and not willing to believe in the "Seabrook Island stuff" anymore. Whatever happens to him next and I sure hope we are right that there is a third book, I really want to see what happens next. Whether it involves the DT or not..

You have me really thingking now Angus, I'll have to write more later..

Larry! Larry Underwood! Do'h! How could I forget such a classy character name. I have always felt that King had defined his perfect character type when he created Larry Underwood. From that point on, I kept seeing a type of Larry in everything he wrote. I feel that Eddie is the masterwork of the Larry prototype. Larry is a type of character that could be selfish or selfless at times. Larry was an addictive personality that could destroy himself or purge himself. Larry could easily go evil or go good. Lloyd is an evil Larry. Eddie is a good Larry. The main character in Pet Semetary is a Larry. Larry is a hot flame that can burn itself out quickly or burn forever. It seems the Larry prototype is always destined to die vainly or for the greater good. Because the Larry prototype is a mallible type, I feel the reader identifies quickly and stedfastly to the type. Look back at your favorite characters in a Stephen King book, is that character a:

1. Larry prototype (Eddie)

2. Jack prototype (actually I would call this the kid's name from Salem's Lot, but I can't remember his name). The character is the child who is thrown into a evil's way and seems to either rise to the occasion and conquer it (ala The Talisman) or subcomb to the evil and die (ala Cujo). His novels are filled with many different variations of this type. (Jake)

3. Carrie prototype. This is a teenager character that is abused and strikes back, usually to their demise. A lot of King's early work deals with this character type, but as he grows older he strayed away from it. Christine and Rage are typical novels with this type in it (Roland, Cuthbert, Alaine, and Susanah in Wizard and Glass are examples of this)

4. Torrence prototype. The father/mother figured controled by an addiction which leads to self destruction. This is usually a reflection of the author himself fighting his many addictions. They mostly die miserably as if King is condemning himself for his failures. In fact, it seems this prototype is getting more prominent in his recent work as the writer gets older. Some examples in novels are The Shining and Bag of Bones(the writer is addicted to his wife to the point of complete shut down...it's a sad novel in many ways, and I don't see much of a conection to the Dark Tower except for locations). (King's portrayal of himself in the Dark Tower and Roland are examples of this)

5. Mother Abigel prototype. The mystic/prophet/servent of God character. A person that has a power, usually from God, that helps unite the character's together and brings in a faith quality to the book(although that is not always true). King is a Methodist and it seems he does have strong faith although he tends to be wary of religion, this is understandable because religion can be corrupted(as is seen in his novels) but faith is strong and sturdy. I am Southern Baptist, and as I was growing up my family and friends thought I was reading the devil's work. It took many years for me to convince them to actually sit down and read a King novel (usually The Stand) and to see that King has a strong faith presence in his books. I actually enjoyed the fact that King shows some villians having a strong faith in God in the Dark Tower. It showed more of a grey area of life than a strict black and white element that most people think stories should have. Another good example of this is seen in the modern day version of Battlestar Galactica where the Zylons seem to be Jewish/Christian in their faith (that point alone makes Galactica a real thinker of a show). Heck, Baltar had a salvation moment in one of the episodes which really got me thinking. I'm still thinking about that. There are many versions of this prototype in the Dark Tower but I consider Susannah the big one (although as the mystic uniter, the soul of the Ka-Tet).

6. Flagg prototype. The villian in human form. Almost every book and movie has a Flagg prototype, more than that it is Flagg in another incarnation of himself. It would be easier to name the books that the Flagg prototype isn't in: Firestarter, It, etc.

7. Spider prototype. The monster of ultimate evil and corruption. Usually it is a spider because King seems to be really disturbed by them, but it doesn't have to be. In the Shining it was a hotel, in Pet Semetary it was a graveyard/cat/baby boy. In Cujo, it was rabies (never Cujo, that was an innocent puppy possessed). (Mordred)

8. Maine prototype. Even if the backdrop isn't Maine, it's still Maine. Have you ever been to Maine? It's a beautiful rural state and every King fan should rent a car and drive that state one summer. Come up from Boston. The stories you read will become more tangible and real once you see this place. King has singlehandly took a rural state and made it into an ominous locale. (Magis)

He did the same thing to Wisconsin Angus.. it is beautiful here as well and looks a bit like Maine in some places. Way up North in Cable and Hayward, all there is is forest and roads. The only thing he got wrong about WI is that we have a helmet law for adults. We don't you only have to wear a helmet if you are under the age of 12, stupid yeah but that's the way it goes. I think most of what you say here is dead on about the Archetypes Characters he has created. I do see the resemblences to each other of course, I guess I never really thought about the "people" in his books that way before, I have always seen them as unique each and everyone of them. I have to think about it some more and come and post later.

You look at the DT series in so much more detail then I have Angus. Thats not a bad thing of course, just different Like Meggles, I sort of looked at the characters as being unqiue too each other. I did notice the similarities between Larry and Eddie though. Both characters were greedy low-lifes who were thrust into a dire situation, changed, and became heroes in the end (to different extents, of course.) Both were also my favourite characters in those particular books - maybe that exposes my inner most personality or something like that

Shows you have good taste Tul, that's all. I loved Stu the best in The Stand but Larry was 2nd and Tom Cullen third.. and what does that say about me?

I like Stu the best because I identified with him so quickly: he was from East Texas and read Watership Down...hey for a ninth grader that's all that I needed to quickly put myself in his shoes.

M-O-O-N, that spells mildly retarded.

Well it looks as if Stephen King has a new book coming out called "The Coloardo Kid" which appears to be the first book in a series of many based on pulp crime from a variety of autors (king just writes the first.) An old fashioned murder mystery done by the man himself - should be interesting at least

http://www.stephenking.com/colorado_kid_press_release/

There were rumours he wasn't retiring and I suppose they were true, especially with continous gossip concerning the third Talisman.

If you pull aside a Stephen King fan and asked them what is one of their most memorable quotes from a King novel, I feel that most of them would say,"M-O-O-N! That spells...". Tom Cullins was a great character creation. He is a kid at heart and we are introduced to him in a deserted town playing with the largest toy set in the world! (How many of us would like to set up a town in exactly the way we want it...it's called Sim City) His first words immediately make you love him and without knowing it, you are rooting for him to succeed. He makes Nick look a bit more human and you get the feeling that Nick is safe as long as Tom Cullen is near him. He is the perfect foil of the Trash Can Man, whom everyone seems to love just as much..."My life for you!" It tears your heart out when the council sends Tom to Lost Wages and you feel the explosion that kills most of the council later is just deserts for doing it. God seemed to want Tom to be there so that he could save Stu and witness the new Sodom's destruction. What tears me up is when he saves Stu's life and Stu thanks him and Tom starts crying and beating himself upside the head because he felt so stupid. I was in tears and saying,"no Tom you were just perfect".

King tried to recreate a Tom Cullen character in Shemie in the Dark Tower, but he just felt too forced. Whereas Eddie really does take on the characteristics of Larry, Shemie falls way short and doesn't have enough time devoted to him to really hit home, even his death doesn't register on the scale because he just died in transit. In a way, a reader could feel cheated because there is a good story for Shemie (and maybe it's out there and I haven't read it yet) dying to get out.